Wednesday, November 22, 2006
Half a Vee Sign
Larry Moran has set off a tizzy with certain of his comments, picked up first by William Dembski and then Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute. Essentially, Larry opined that any university students who reject evolution should be flunked or not admitted in the first place. He also called ID proponents "IDiots" and, in the case of Dembski's blog crawlers, "sycophants." That is not very inflammatory by talk.origins standards where, for going on a decade, I have observed and interacted with Larry. First of all, if Larry says he intended his remarks as humor and sarcasm, I believe him. Larry has long had a reputation as a curmudgeon at talk.origins and revels in it not a little bit. Thowing bombs just to see what happens would not be out of character for Larry. He is wrong that his humor and sarcasm are always obvious, as the hurt feelings he recently engendered in another long time talk.origins habitué and friend of his demonstrated.
Ed Brayton at Dispatches from the Culture Wars chided Larry in a post entitled "With Friends Like These," to which Larry responded, which Ed then sur-replied to. Now Pat Hayes of Red State Rabble, another good friend of science who worked hard in the recent evolution wars in Kansas, has weighed in, coming down squarely on Ed's side. For the record, so am I, though there is always room for some quibbles.
As someone who has been around this mulberry bush with Larry fairly extensively at talk.origins in the past and somewhat more since Larry has put a toe in the blog pool, I can say with high confidence that Larry will go on insisting that Ken Miller and other theistic evolutionists are mixing science and theology, no matter how often and clearly they separate the two in their books and other writings.
Larry has yet to give me a clear explanation for this claim. Sometimes he seems to be claiming that anything that slightly bears on science is completely closed to religion, as if theists have to deny the Earth is round or stand convicted of mixing science and religion. At other times he appears to defend some sort of notion that scientists are required to do nothing but science and should turn the method of science into a worldview. Then he will often simply refuse to recognize any difference between science and theology, as when he takes that diagram by Rev. Ted Peters, clearly labeled "theistic evolution" and claims a position for himself on it, despite the fact that, as I know from personal experience, one of the easiest ways to get Larry's goat is to say that he is engaged in theology.
But let's take another tack for the moment. Richard Dawkins has another analogy that I think is spectacularly misguided, as bad as his "Jesus' divinity is a scientific question" attempt. Normally, shooting down Dawkins would please Larry, who hates Dawkins' scientific work, which Larry thinks is both factually wrong and illogical. In this case, I think Larry's right about Dawkins ... but will he be happy about it?
The following comes from the same article that the Jesus' DNA analogy came from, "Why There Almost Certainly Is No God," that can be found here, among many other places:
Scientists divide into two schools of thought over the best tactics with which to face the threat. The Neville Chamberlain 'appeasement' school focuses on the battle for evolution. Consequently, its members identify fundamentalism as the enemy, and they bend over backwards to appease 'moderate' or 'sensible' religion (not a difficult task, for bishops and theologians despise fundamentalists as much as scientists do). Scientists of the Winston Churchill school, by contrast, see the fight for evolution as only one battle in a larger war: a looming war between supernaturalism on the one side and rationality on the other. For them, bishops and theologians belong with creationists in the supernatural camp, and are not to be appeased.Besides the blatant attempt to wrap himself and his allies in the image of one of the indomitable heroes of the last century, a technique as familiar to scoundrels as wrapping the flag around themselves, Dawkins seems to forget that Churchill, when he looked at the "big picture," was more than willing to make common cause with a monster every bit as evil and depraved as Hitler ever was: Joseph Stalin. Ken Miller, Francis Collins, Francisco Ayala, George Coyne and the many other scientists and supporters of science who are also theists don't remotely compare to the devil Churchill willingly shook hands with. And Larry's claim that those people are a worse threat to science and science education than Behe, Dembski, Ham and Morris is just the kind of overheated rhetoric that may be humor and satire in Larry's mind.
No matter what, it is a pretty basic rule of warfare that you don't shoot the guys in your own trench.
Comments:
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I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that you do not think I am nearly as bad as Stalin.
Seriously though, I have been following this discussion all over the internets. I have yet to understand how exactly, I am supposed to be the enemy. Being a Christian with very strong deist leanings I have learned that I am more acceptable to people such as Dawkins or Moran, but I like to identify with the "lesser" rabble of full-on, evolutionary theists for this discussion.
No one can righteously explain why, when I share identical values, believe in absolute seperation of church and state, I should be the enemy - or why those who share the above, believe in hell and possibley leperchauns, should be the enemy.
Nor has anyone been clear on why interfaith alliances against church and state are bad. The forums around here (I live in Portland, OR) even have a very high ratio of atheists compared to the few I visited back in Michigan. Most importantly, they are great for teaching people how the state and religion can mix, it's not always obvious to everyone when it is happening. They are also great at teaching people how to make it clear to everyone around you that keeping church and state seperate is so very important.
By the way, not being very familiar with Larry Moran, I had no clue if he was joking or not. Also, being one who is trying to raise the level of my own discourse, I actively avoid paying attention to sarcasm. I take the things people say and especialy write, at face value. I have to often been burned, discovering what I thought wa sarcasm was not - I no longer give the benifit of the doubt. The value of most dialogue goes up exponentialy, when sarcasm is left out.
Seriously though, I have been following this discussion all over the internets. I have yet to understand how exactly, I am supposed to be the enemy. Being a Christian with very strong deist leanings I have learned that I am more acceptable to people such as Dawkins or Moran, but I like to identify with the "lesser" rabble of full-on, evolutionary theists for this discussion.
No one can righteously explain why, when I share identical values, believe in absolute seperation of church and state, I should be the enemy - or why those who share the above, believe in hell and possibley leperchauns, should be the enemy.
Nor has anyone been clear on why interfaith alliances against church and state are bad. The forums around here (I live in Portland, OR) even have a very high ratio of atheists compared to the few I visited back in Michigan. Most importantly, they are great for teaching people how the state and religion can mix, it's not always obvious to everyone when it is happening. They are also great at teaching people how to make it clear to everyone around you that keeping church and state seperate is so very important.
By the way, not being very familiar with Larry Moran, I had no clue if he was joking or not. Also, being one who is trying to raise the level of my own discourse, I actively avoid paying attention to sarcasm. I take the things people say and especialy write, at face value. I have to often been burned, discovering what I thought wa sarcasm was not - I no longer give the benifit of the doubt. The value of most dialogue goes up exponentialy, when sarcasm is left out.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that you do not think I am nearly as bad as Stalin.
Yeah, I know. I doubted if that was the best way to put it but it is a relative judgment that should be made. That even goes for the creationists. I think Dawkins and Larry are making absolute judgments and, by that standard, we are all ... um ... sinners.
By the way, not being very familiar with Larry Moran, I had no clue if he was joking or not.
Trust me, people who have known him a very long time don't always know either.
Yeah, I know. I doubted if that was the best way to put it but it is a relative judgment that should be made. That even goes for the creationists. I think Dawkins and Larry are making absolute judgments and, by that standard, we are all ... um ... sinners.
By the way, not being very familiar with Larry Moran, I had no clue if he was joking or not.
Trust me, people who have known him a very long time don't always know either.
My My My.
I tend to some other interests for a few days and all Hell breaks lose. Ed Brayton, as usual, is throwing accusations around trying to seem important. One of his more absurd statements is;
But some, like Larry Moran, PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Gary Hurd and others, are involved in an entirely different battle. For them, it's not enough to protect science education from the attacks of some religious people; religion itself, in any form, is to be attacked and destroyed by any means necessary.
First, I am flattered to be mentioned together with Moran, Myers and Dawkins, but it is totally inappropriate. I have at best a tiny fraction of the scientific accomplishments of these men, or their public influence. Brayton has never contributed to science or education and has comparatively little influence, so this is clearly a "division by zero" problem.
Nor have I ever considered it necessary to eliminate religion, regardless of means. I don't think that science can do this in any event. The only certain path to atheism I know of is to study theology.
Let me propose a simple analogy; the pro-science education effort is like a dog. There is the wagging tail at one end, and the bark and even teeth at the other. PZ, Dawkins and others are at the front. Pat, Nick and others are the friendly, inclusive wagging tail and Ed Brayton is the little part just below the wag. I'm the little flea whispering that if you don't want to divide forces, then ignore divisive people like Ed who demand that you have to be on "his" side and don't step in the mess he leaves on the floor.
(I have used this as a "canned" response today)
I tend to some other interests for a few days and all Hell breaks lose. Ed Brayton, as usual, is throwing accusations around trying to seem important. One of his more absurd statements is;
But some, like Larry Moran, PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Gary Hurd and others, are involved in an entirely different battle. For them, it's not enough to protect science education from the attacks of some religious people; religion itself, in any form, is to be attacked and destroyed by any means necessary.
First, I am flattered to be mentioned together with Moran, Myers and Dawkins, but it is totally inappropriate. I have at best a tiny fraction of the scientific accomplishments of these men, or their public influence. Brayton has never contributed to science or education and has comparatively little influence, so this is clearly a "division by zero" problem.
Nor have I ever considered it necessary to eliminate religion, regardless of means. I don't think that science can do this in any event. The only certain path to atheism I know of is to study theology.
Let me propose a simple analogy; the pro-science education effort is like a dog. There is the wagging tail at one end, and the bark and even teeth at the other. PZ, Dawkins and others are at the front. Pat, Nick and others are the friendly, inclusive wagging tail and Ed Brayton is the little part just below the wag. I'm the little flea whispering that if you don't want to divide forces, then ignore divisive people like Ed who demand that you have to be on "his" side and don't step in the mess he leaves on the floor.
(I have used this as a "canned" response today)
(I have used this as a "canned" response today)
I've noticed. ;-)
I've also noticed that there is bad blood between Ed and you which is, no doubt, the proximate cause of Ed dragging you into this, quite separate and apart from your accomplishments (downplayed, I'm sure, for modesty's sake).
We are all a**holes some of the time and can only hope to modulate the frequency.
As far as I'm concerned, Ed's on the right side of most issues most of the time. But then so is PZ, Larry and Ken Miller.
If Larry wants to criticize Miller's theology or even the idea that scientists can have theology, that's fine (if misguided). To say that Miller is harmful to the cause of good science education, despite the empiric evidence to the contrary, is wrong, I'm agin' it and I'm going to say so.
I've noticed. ;-)
I've also noticed that there is bad blood between Ed and you which is, no doubt, the proximate cause of Ed dragging you into this, quite separate and apart from your accomplishments (downplayed, I'm sure, for modesty's sake).
We are all a**holes some of the time and can only hope to modulate the frequency.
As far as I'm concerned, Ed's on the right side of most issues most of the time. But then so is PZ, Larry and Ken Miller.
If Larry wants to criticize Miller's theology or even the idea that scientists can have theology, that's fine (if misguided). To say that Miller is harmful to the cause of good science education, despite the empiric evidence to the contrary, is wrong, I'm agin' it and I'm going to say so.
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